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An Update on Message Wall

Jenburton Jenburton September 30, 2011

What a week it’s been over here on Community Central!

I wanted to reach out, first and foremost, to thank you for your passionate feedback regarding Message Wall. We’ve read, shared, and quantified every single one of your comments and have replied to a good number of them as well. I know we’ve taken a bit of heat for not replying to every comment, but we have to make judgment calls or else we would have to work around the clock and other important tasks wouldn’t get completed. Here are a few things we’ve learned this week:

Posting screenshots to a Staff Blog without a working prototype is less than optimal.

  • We didn’t give you much to react to other than a few static images and a bunch of text. Having a major product like Message Wall up and available to play with would have been a much more effective announcement. As Dopp mentioned in her post, we’ll be releasing Message Wall to a small number of wikis next week (let us know if you want to be a part of this test!) and we’ll be releasing it on Community Central shortly thereafter. Once we have Message Wall out in the wild, we’ll be tracking and analyzing both usage metrics and your feedback to make ongoing adjustments and improvements.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/dorkomatic/5971964674/
    JenburtonAdded by Jenburton


There are two things to know about why we’re not releasing Message Wall in Labs right now:

  1. The product we release to test wikis next week will not be feature complete — we expect it to have some bugs, and development will still continue. That being said, we haven't decided for sure yet if we'll put it in Labs at all. One of the reasons for our hesitation is that the act of going back and forth between talk pages and Message Wall is likely to cause a mess of your communications, and we don't want this to be more difficult than it needs to be. The product and development teams working on Message Wall are deeply focused on getting ready for the first round of tests — after the first tests are live, we'll have the information we need to make this decision. Dopp or I will keep you posted.
  2. When we originally made the announcement on Monday, we understood that turning Message Wall on and off was not technically feasible. We’ve since learned that it is possible to turn the feature off and on (and, with our help, the test wikis will be able to do so).

Admins will be able to edit the archived talk pages.

  • We made this change based off your feedback, and we're certainly not done iterating on Message Wall.

We love our passionate Community Central readers — we really do! However, until we see a wider release of Message Wall, we won’t make any determinations about how this product will work simply based on the number of “No!” comments received in the previous blog post. (As of my last check, the over 1,100 comments on Dopp's post were made by just ~300 individuals.) We literally have millions of users on Wikia. Once Message Wall is live on Community Central, we’ll post a global sitewide message inviting everyone to come see, use, and give feedback on it. We really do believe that once you have a chance to see Message Wall in action and use it, you’ll find that it's a really great addition to your experience on Wikia.

UPDATE: Hey all - we're closing comments here at this time since we don't have any further information for you regarding Message Wall release plans. We're listing the main points we've heard from you on a public page. We know the list isn't complete, so we'll continue to update it as we process your responses. As we move further into the testing phase, this is also where we're keeping track of bug reports for you. We'll keep you posted with relevant developments.

Want to receive updates on the latest Staff blog posts? Then click here to follow this blog.

Retrieved from "http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Jenburton/An_Update_on_Message_Wall"
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324 comments


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  • Pinguinus

    Please: why don't you make a poll? That way, you will have a much clearer idea about how the users of your site feel about this.

    by Pinguinus
  • Vatsa1708

    Don't know if this has been reported but, blocked users can still edit/delete the messages and warnings posted on their message wall..

    by Vatsa1708
  • Conqueror of all Zombies

    Please make this optional. I go onto wiki to edit, and onto facebook to see what my friends are doing. I don't want to have both of those in one. I have a feeling that too many new users will use this feature like facebook.

    by Conqueror of all Zombies
  • Breakingmikey

    What's the point of WikiaLabs, MediaWiki:css, preferences and Wikia.css if we can't make Message Walls optional? ._.

    by Breakingmikey
    • Lancer1289

      Wikia's history at this point is forcing things on us that turn wikia into a social network at the expence of what a Wiki is really about. We all know what wiki is supposed to be about, but I've seen more than a few people who think the staff doens't anymore. This feature should be optional, but I don't think the staff will listen to this suggestion as they think that they know best, and in this case, and many others, they are reinventing the wheel, when they don't need to, and instead of getting something round, they made it a rectangle.

      by Lancer1289
    • LurkerLordB

      Lancer, what new features, other than the message wall, are trying to turn wikia into a social network?

      by LurkerLordB
  • TheBen10Mazter

    Message Wall:not as bad as people say it is. Real only down side is that there is no new messages bubble. But everything else is fine.

    by TheBen10Mazter
    • Tama63

      ... they also work alot like Facebook "walls".Its good for some people but alot would say "its not for me".There is no reason why this cant be optional

      by Tama63
  • Eladkse

    None of the 'system messages' for Message Wall are appearing for me. Can someone check?

    by Eladkse
  • Varkanax39

    Okay, I've been reading through a lot of the comments on the initial message wall announcement, this blog, and on community test, and what I'm wondering is this: are there any more updates on this, considering there's been plenty of feedback provided? I think that the users of wikia have provided ample feedback, and the overriding thing I see on both this blog post and the original is this- make it optional.

    I'd prefer not to recap on everything I've said already, but I'd like to say this. There is nothing wrong with user talk pages. Making them easier to use by new users is not a proper answer. I'm sorry, but it's not. New users can learn. There is nothing wrong with user talk pages. Nothing. I don't want to know how you arrived at the conclusion that this would be easier to use, but I'd like to know this: is there any other reason not to make this optional? I still haven't gotten a real answer from any staff member. If the only reason is "it's easier for new users" or "it will disrupt communications", then please rethink this and make it optional. If it's not, then I'll rethink my position. But so far, I haven't seen any other reason listed by the staff. And if you think being able to turn it on and off will disrupt our communications, then simply don't make it available in Wikia Labs, but turned off via Special:Contact.

    I don't really want to spend any more time arguing against this, I know you can't answer every question, but I've asked this so many times now...I'd like to state a few my points one time in the hope that this will be noticed. No, not just noticed, but taken to heart by the Wikia staff.

    In conclusion:

    • Message Wall causes more problems then it solves (such as what happens when a user with hundreds of thousands of Message Wall messages is renamed. How will you fix that?). It does. I won't restate them, but take a look at posts by Lancer, Godisme, Monchoman, and some of my earlier posts on this blog or on communitytest.wikia.com.
    • It does not look at all professional, sleek, useful, or encouraging of real communication in any way. Maybe talk pages are not perfect, but almost no replacement could be worse then Message Wall.
    • Worse then all that, it's not optional. The staff has been asking for feedback, and the overriding feedback is negative. Worse then that, we have good reasons to not like this. It is not at all a "great addition to my experience at Wikia". I use Wikia for editing and improving content, not for chatting using chat-like devices like Message Wall, Chat, and article comments.
    • The sheer amount of negative feedback from extremely experienced users is worrying (more so the fact that the staff continually says that "we hear your feedback" but does not act upon the most overriding amount of feedback, make it optional.). To see users like Monchoman, Lancer, Godisme (to name but a few), experienced editors on both Central and beyond that have supported Wikia changes in the past saying that this is not a good idea makes me know that I'm not alone in saying that this is a terrible idea. Can we please not have this forced upon us if we don't want it to be?

    Wow, that was way longer then I wanted it to be. Anyway, please respond. And please give me an answer this time. If you can't, then listen to what I have said- and what almost all of your editors are saying and have said- and make the Message Wall optional. Because it is not a good new feature. It simply creates way more problems then it solves, and isn't wanted at all by many editors anyway, who want it to be an option only.

    by Varkanax39
    history
  • 201.21.1.146

    This excuse about making it "easier" for new users is bullcrap. New users know how to handle a talk page perfectly and if anything, this would even be more confusing for them. On talk pages, you can reply to a single comment. On message walls, you can only reply to a whole post.

    Not only that, but most users come to Wikia so they can contribute to a wiki and make some friends in the process, not to go on Facebook V2. Not only that, but talk pages are a complex, yet easy concept. It's not that hard to just leave a message on a talk page, is it? If not, you can always ask someone on your Chat or on your IRC channel. It's not that hard to get informed.

    Wikia, you are making nothing easier by putting up this message wall. Instead, you are just making everything harder. Not for users. But for yourself. Many users are tired of their opinions not being heard and if this continues to be the case, I would not be shocked to see Wikia go downhill. I sincerely hope you learn from your mistakes and learn to listen to feedback from users because this is completely spiraling out of control.

    by A Wikia contributor
  • LurkerLordB

    It says you no longer have to go into the editor to edit the pages. What about posting images on talk pages? Images are often needed in some conversations, so not allowing them to appear on the user talk pages would limit discussions terribly.

    by LurkerLordB
    • LurkerLordB

      Also, I think it may have been a better idea to make the forums on the wikis more like actual forums, that was way more confusing for me when I joined than talk pages.

      by LurkerLordB
    • LurkerLordB

      I tested it out, and turns out you can post images! Huzzah! Allow comments to be "nested" (like being able to reply to replies) and I have no problem with this!

      by LurkerLordB
  • Roads

    Like talk pages are so complicated to new users. One of the first things I ever did on Wikia was edit a talk page, and it was SO easy, that I blew through it as if I just added a sentence to a page, which I did, more or less.

    ---****--- Roads

    by Roads
  • Isdrakthül

    Ille est stercus taurī.

    You say that you only got feedback from around three hundred users, but do you think that, by some coincidence, the only users that came to your blogs were the ones that disliked the change? Also, if these other users want your feature so badly, why can't they be expected to come say so? Elections aren't decided based upon how people might have voted, had they shown up.

    As for your longing to be Facebook, if you really need to actually make a Facebook-type website and watch your dreams of profit crumble away to know that it's a bad idea, could you make a new website instead of ruining the one you already have?

    by Isdrakthül
  • Silver-Haired Seireitou

    The issue here is that you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Communicating between members on talk-pages is very goddamn simple. You act as if it's rocket science, and think that you need to use Facebook coding to make it "so easy, a caveman could do it." I think the biggest issue I have here is that you don't care at all if everybody hates it, so long as there is a single voice that says "oh, it's cool". I don't know what you're trying to prove, but let me tell you this. History is full of moments where any sort of leadership, whether being a monarchy, or with a democratic government, would ruin everything because said person(s) in charge tried to make things "better" when things were just fine. And that's what is happening here. Don't try to cover up the truth with false empty promises, alright? This is exactly what everybody has been saying: this is a pathetic attempt at making Wikia into Facebook. And you should stop now, before you decide to do one more ridiculous update, and then you can say good-bye to your userbase.

    I know what you're thinking. "Lololololol, he thinks just because he says this, we'll care." Guess what? Everybody in opposition to this stupid thing, which is a pretty huge majority of ACTIVE (yeah, I said active; you may have millions of Wikia users, but you can't honestly say each and every one of them are active, and even more so, haven't decided to post their real feelings toward this stupidity) users thinks very similar, if not exactly, as I do. It's not even a matter of losing the userbase majority anymore. Wikia has always stood for content, above all else, not communication. While community was encouraged, the Wikia's main point was for content, and this... this... farce pretty much destroys that very principle.

    I suggest you stop thinking you're doing good to the Wikia, and its userbase, and actually start caring about what we think, instead of thinking that just because a few people are for this, that makes it okay to completely disregard the majority of angry and annoyed users.

    Good day, Wikia.

    by Silver-Haired Seireitou
  • Darth Culator

    How many users were opposed out of how many total unique commenters on the topic? THAT would be a more telling statistic. For the record, here are 47 (and counting) against to 0 in favor. Just make the feature optional per-wiki and a lot of your opposition will vanish.

    by Darth Culator
  • BlueDagger

    Although I still do not like the idea of the change, this post at least gives me some small reassurance that you are actually semi listening to us.

    by BlueDagger
  • Lancer1289

    I just looked at this on the test wiki, and I have to say that I'm 1000% disappointed, but appalled would be a better word. I'm not seeing a productive work environment for getting questions answered and dealing with wiki business, I'm seeing Facebook and everything that comes with it. This feature is, IMO, a waste of WIkia's time, money, and frankly will not do anything but distract from content and the reasons wikis exist, which is to collect, organize, and publish information about a topic. The useless/pointless/and completely irrelevant things on the test wiki look like a cheap Facebook knockoff and I'm convinced that people will not use this feature for discussing wiki business, they will use it for what people use facebook for, chit-chatting. I DON'T WANT THAT ON MY TALK PAGE.

    This feature should be one of three things:

    1. Optional
    2. Used in conjunction with user talk pages
    3. Abandoned (Preferred option)

    If I'm forced to use this completely worthless, and completely idiotic feature, then I will set up another user page for me to use as my talk page because using this feature will be a waste of my time and efforts. I will not use this as my talk page and will direct users to leave messages there where I will respond and where I will conduct business. And if I’m forced to use it, then I will give serious thought to leaving Wikia and dismissing the entire network as a site that is being nothing more than a facebook rip off.

    This is not in keeping with what a wiki is supposed to do, it's distracting, and it makes WIkia look like a social network. There is no denying this and anyone who ways that it isn't like a social network, all I can say is that you need to put this monstrosity next to a facebook wall, and if you can't see the resemblance, then, in all honestly, you need your eyes examined. Harsh, but true if you can't see it.

    Content is the core of a wiki, not some stupid, ridiculous, idiotic, and worthless wall that makes a wiki look like a social networking site, rather than a serious place for discussing things. Wikia staff members, these talk page limitations are only in your head, so please get them out of there. Talk pages aren’t that hard to follow and the fact a staff member is saying they are is extremely disturbing to me and suggests ulterior motives. Talk pages aren’t that hard to follow and again the “limitations” are only in your heads.

    Wikia, do yourselves a favor and either make it optional, or just stop pushing it as you aren't doing anyone any favors. If this goes through, then this is no longer MediaWiki, it's MediaWikia, and that's scary. Anyone who says that this feature will be still be in line with MedaWiki, really needs to look at it again.

    by Lancer1289
  • TheBen10Mazter

    Sorry for my impatience, really sorry, but when is Ben 10 gonna test this? Its the end of the week. Thanks! (PS:Im sorry for my impatience)

    by TheBen10Mazter
  • Roads

    Will anyone be able to add some pretext to the Wall at the beginning? Example. Another example. This tells users things before they leave a message.

    ---****--- Roads

    by Roads
  • Pikapi

    MANDATORY! Why, just give one good reason why! It seems that all you guys care about is turning Wikia into Facebook, little by little. Damn it this just goes to show you that there is no such thing as a nice, free wiki host anymore. I am sooooooooooooooooo pissed right now. This is the worst thing you admins have said since the skin update. This is unecessary and pathetic. I wonder if you can just stop using the words "fun and creative" for a minute and explain to us why you are really doing this!

    by Pikapi
    • Roads

      First of all, there were many dumb changes after the skin change: new editor, new profiles, etc. Second of all, I agree with you 99.99999%, excluding the part with profanity.

      ---****--- Roads

      by Roads
    • Piotr Bablok

      Short answer: to make communication easier for new users.

      by Piotr Bablok
    • Ciencia Al Poder

      What about old users?

      by Ciencia Al Poder
    • Dopp
      • Making important conversations permanently linkable
      • Making notifications more meaningful for people who have a high volume of conversations
      • Making sure you can still do all of your wikitext and collaboration work (still in progress)
      by Dopp
  • Ryan PM

    Can't immediately see the history for a given comment on the Wall. Blogs have this function, why not the Wall?

    Another thing that concerns me is how new Message Wall edits are handled in the RC. It will appear as: 

    N    13:53:33    Prueba~~~~‎ (diff | hist) . . (+117) . . MAESTRO AX (Talk | contribs) (Created page with "Prueba ~~~~<ac_metadata title="Prueba~~~~"> </ac_metadata>")

    At first glance, it appears to be a new page in the Mainspace. This does not help anti-vandal work and should be rectified soon.

    by Ryan PM
    history
  • Dynovan

    We dont want this...

    by Dynovan

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